Date of Andal Srivilliputhur 3004 BC?


I am checking the dates and history of India during middle ages to sort out misinformation that had crept into early Indian History.

In this article ,I am looking at the date of Andal,the only Saint Poetss in Tamil,an Azhwar among the twelve.

Why have I chosen Andal,not others?

Honest reason is I was born in Srivilliputhur and studied there.

Srivilliputhur Andal temple.image.
Srivilliputhur Andal temple.The Tower is The Emblem of aTamil Nadu.

This small town is the birth place of Andal and Srivilliputhur Andal Temple is famous as the second Divyakshetra after Srirangam for Sri Vaishnavas.( Vaikuntam is taken as the first Divyadesa,but as it is celestial it is not taken into account as a Divyadesa in Earth)

Though an Iyer, I am conversant with Vaishnava Sampradaaya as much as Iyers’ mostly because I spent my formative years at lap of Andal and I am moved by Thiruppavai as much as Abhirami Andhadi.

As to the date of Andal,the scholars (?)assign 7 or 8th Century AD.

The evidence they rely on are,

Internal evidence in Andal’s Thiruppavai mainly and her foster father Vishnuchittha’s Works.

The astronomical event described in Thiruppavai.

The internal evidence rests on the style of Andal’s Works belong to a much later period than the Sangam period.

She refers to Sangam period as Sangath Tamizhmaalai Muppadhum Thappame,’Garland of poems modeled after Sangam Tamil Style,

‘சங்கத் தமிழ்மாலை முப்பதும் தப்பாமே’ Thiruppaavai 30.

The same style is found in her foster father’s Works.

Secondly,reference is taken to another Thiruppaavai,

புள்ளின்வாய் கீண்டானை, பொல்லா அரக்கனைக்

கிள்ளிக் களைந்தானைக் கீர்த்திமை பாடிப்போய்,
பிள்ளைகள் எல்லாரும் பாவைக் களம்புக்கார்;
வெள்ளி எழுந்து, வியாழம் உறங்கிற்று;
புள்ளும் சிலம்பினகாண்; போதரிக் கண்ணினாய்!
குள்ளக் குளிரக் குடைந்து நீராடாதே,
பள்ளிக் கிடத்தியோ? பாவாய்! நீ நன்னாளால்
கள்ளம் தவிர்ந்து கலந்தேலோ ரெம்பாவாய். ‘

வெள்ளி எழுந்து, வியாழம் உறங்கிற்று;

This refers to the celetial phenomenon of Venus rising in the East and Jupiter setting in the West,in the early hours of the day.(Brahma Muhurtha between 3.45 and 4.30 am)

Based on this thecday on which the poem was composed is fixed either  on 25th November 885 AD or 24th December 886 AD.

So the datevof Andal is assigned as 8th Century AD.

Before looking at the other evidence which dates Andal at 3025 BC,let us look at some issues in the above dates.

1.The style no doubt is an important factor to determine the dates.

True,the Andal’s literary style is not Sangam Style.

But is that alone sufficient to date around 8th Century AD?

Those who assign 8th Century take reference to Vallabha Pandya who was a contemporary of Vishnu Chitta and Andal and his date is determined around 8th Century AD.

Vishnuchitta is assigned 8oo to 885 AD.

ஞானசம்பந்தர் (640-656 A.D.) (மாமல்ல I, பாண்டியன் அரிகேசரி நெடுமாறன்  சம காலத்தவர்)அப்பர் (580-660 A.D.) (மஹேந்திரன், மாமல்ல மற்றும் பாண்டியன் அரிகேசரியின் சமகாலத்தவர்)பெரியாழ்வார் (800-885 A.D.) (பாண்டியன் ஸ்ரீ மாற ஸ்ரீ வல்லப சமகாலத்தவர்), நம்மாழ்வார் (745 to 780 A.D.) போன்றோர் வாழ்ந்த காலம் பற்றிய தெளிவு கிடைக்கின்றது.

எனவே பெரியாழ்வார் ஸ்ரீ மாறன் ஸ்ரீ வல்லபன் (கி.பி. 815 – 862) என்ற பாண்டியன் காலத்தில் வாழ்ந்தவர் என்று ஐயத்திற்கு இடமின்றி ஏற்றுக்கொள்ளலாம்.  பெரியாழ்வாரே பாண்டியன் கோ நெடுமாறன் தன் சமகாலத்வர் என்று மூன்று இடங்களில் குறிப்பிட்டுள்ளார்: 

  1. பருப்பதத்து கயல் பொறித்த பாண்டியர் குலபதி. (பெரியாழ்வார் திருமொழி 5-4-7) 
  2. கொன்னவில் சுடர் வெல் கோன் நெடுமாறன் (பெரியாழ்வார் திருமொழி 4-2-7 ) 
  3. குறுகாத மன்னரை கூடு கலக்கி (பெரியாழ்வார் திருமொழி 4-2-8)

குருபம்பரை நூலிலும் பாண்டியன் ஸ்ரீ வல்லபன் பெரியாழ்வாரின் சமகாலத்தவர் என்று குறிப்பிடப்பட்டுள்ளது.’

Source.  http://akharam.blogspot.in/2015/01/blog-post.html

However as there are more kings by the same name,which one should we take?

Again the planetary alignment stated above  is not limited to the two dates mentioned above.

They had happened earlier,even during Sangam Period and will take place in future as celetial events take place with regularity,as in Agastya Star,Star Canopus for example.

The difficulty in taking celestial event as proof is not foolproof.

Please read my article on Difficulty in dating Hinduism.

Now let us look at another date assigned  to Andal based on another Text.

Sri Andal is considered the incarnation of Bhoomi Devi (Mother Earth). She was like Sri Seetha born of Mother Earth. Divya Suri Charita records that she appeared as a child in the 97 th year after the onset of Kali Yuga termed the Nala year, in the Tamil month of Adi in the Purva Phalguni asterism. Follow the link for a brief outline of Sri Andal (Godha) and her works’

Source.

http://azhwar.org/?p=28

I am not sure from where you are getting the idea of Andal being born in 8th century. It is laughable and this is what happens when an outsider puts out the information as he likes and publishes a book. Indeed 3025 BC is a wrong date. I re-edited it to post the correct birth date i.e 97/98th year of Kali Yuga (3102 BC) that puts the date around 3004 BC. Out of 12 alwars, the last alwar was Thirumangai Alwar who was born in 2706 B.C. Nalayira Divya Prabandhams were lost during the big 3500 year gap between Thirumangai Azhwar and Nathamuni. Andal birth date is clearly mentioned, why are you guys who have no idea of the sanatana dharma are tampering with the traditional accounts is beyond me. Should you guys push everything after the christ or something? I don’t understand. Indeed it was a mistake on my part to say 3025 BC but the correct date is around 3004 BC. Research the alwars history, the last alwar was Thirumangai. I don’t care if you bar me from editing the page, its just that wiki loses authority by pushing the dates. I am done…—-Kalyan — Preceding unsigned comment added by SriKrushna7(talk • contribs)

@SriKrushna7: Do you have a reliable source for this, per WP:V and WP:RS? Blogs, random websites and self-published sources are neither scholarly nor acceptable in wikipedia. If you read the pages in the sources cited, you will see support for 8th/9th century. @Redtigerxyz has suggested that we acknowledge the traditional hagiographies, an idea I like, per wiki’s NPOV policy. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@183.82.214.129: In response to your comment on my talk page, please note that the article already has the traditional ~3000 BCE date as a special note. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:56, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

That small note at the bottom is an insult to the Sri Vaishnava sampradaya followers and is considered blasphemy. Your consistent vandalizing of the page with the false dates and preferring of one source over the other just because it does not sound practical for you is absurd. If I could have reported you, I would have already done that to admins and your threats of blocking me and all is absolute nonsense and why would I be blocked for asking a valid question. The date of birth of Andal comes from traditional Tamil scriptures and not by an author of the book who out of his mind sets a date! Read the book ‘Divya Suri Charita’ which actually mentions Andal date of birth (97th Kali/3005 BC to be exact) or and is the primary source of information. Lastly, I don’t know why you are editing a page which you have NO idea about, absurd to say the least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.82.214.129 (talk) 11:52, 27 February 2016 (UTC)’

Source.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Andal#3025_BC_versus_8th.2F9th_century_dating_in_reliable_source

The bottom line is,

1.Texts are taken to vadidate dates.

But when there are more texts mentioning different dates,which one to rely on?

For westerners and Wiki,dates that place Indian History later to Christ or Western Sources.

That’s the reason why I do not edit wiki,despite their communication as I am convinced that minecwill be removed.

I quote Wiki,despite many readers asking me not to rely on it,because I choose a wiki article based on its resources.

I shall write in detail on this in my Page shortly

2.The Sangam date assigned around 3000 BC calls for revision in the light of new archeological finds at Attirampakkam,Poompuhar which set Sangam dates back by 30,000 years.

So the date of Andal at 8th Century AD could be open to question as it might be 3025 BC as the proof here is also dependant on text as in the case of 8th Century AD.

Let me check further.

Scholars may send information.

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